know how the president was once criticized for talking about people clinging to their guns and their religion? >> rightfully so actually. >> yes. okay. these people are clinging to this idea because it's all that's left. it's the only thing they have that they can identify with as a core republican belief, that -- it's a matter of faith that they're clinging to, and the white house is saying, the numbers will not add up in any other way unless you change the top rates. you have to change the top rates. i talked to jay carney just a little while ago -- >> it doesn't work mathematically. >> he said it just can't work. even though they don't want to, the white house says they don't want to let the bush tax cuts expire and have everybody's taxes go up, if we go into next january, if we go to the next congress, which is more democrats in both the house and the senate, i think this white house will be willing to take its chances that they can pass a bill to cut taxes again for the middle class and leave the rates expired for the top. that's their ace in the hole strategy. >> that's a dangerous game